When we think of committed, can-do leadership, our mind goes to Cathy Marcus, Co-CEO and global COO at PGIM Real Estate. A thirty year industry expert, Cathy was an early adopter of executive coaching and has continued to find significant value in coaching. In mentoring and guiding others, Cathy is an advocate of coaching. MindsOpen Founder and Principal Neil Jacobs sat down with Cathy to talk about her experiences of executive coaching and her advice for being a good coachee. This is a series of three articles focusing on how coachees can get the most out of executive coaching.
NJ: What is it about coaching as a solution or offering that you find particularly useful?
CM: I have learned so much about myself through coaching. I think about my first experience of coaching in 2010 and I had never experienced anything like that before. I was nervous about it and I probably wouldn’t have asked for it if I hadn’t gotten to know the coach already. She was also my boss’s coach. He hired her himself to help him achieve his aspirations. Up until that point, I associated executive coaching with there being something wrong that needed fixing. There was a stigma attached to it. Seeing my boss, someone very senior in the company, work with a coach was a complete reframing. Coaching was his way of getting from where he was to where he wanted to be. I saw him be stretched by the coach. It made me feel that if coaching was helping him, it could also help me, given we were quite similar.
I had no idea what to expect from coaching other than I had high expectations and I’d seen my boss being stretched. When that boss suggested I work with the coach, I had in my mind that if I was going to do it, I was really going to do it. I saw another colleague go through coaching and nothing changed in him. He was just trying to get through the coaching by checking boxes.
The best part of coaching for me was letting myself be pushed to do things I was super uncomfortable with. The coach made me declare my ambition in writing and verbally to my boss as well as others who were less supportive. This was very uncomfortable for me because it was very against our culture. Other than my boss, there was no one else in the organization who would admit to being ambitious. At one point I thought, “I don’t know if I can do this,” but I did, and I lived! It set me on a different path.
NJ: Your colleague who didn’t change, what stopped them from getting the return from coaching? What didn’t they do during the coaching?
CM: I’ve seen several people do this in coaching. They continue to hold onto whatever their narrative is instead of changing. This particular individual hung onto his most important value, which was being seen as a good person. This prevented him from having hard conversations with others, mixing it up, and advocating for himself or others.
NJ: What about coaching is the secret sauce or magic compared to other developmental activities leaders can do?
CM: It’s the therapy aspect of it. Your boss is not your therapist. You can go on a leadership program and you might get a bit of insight about your psychological profile but it’s not the same as coaching.
NJ: When people are considering working with a coach, what should they look for?
CM: A good match is important. Our HR team does a good job with that. The individual has to be able to hear what the coach is telling them. The individual has to be primed to hear it and the coach has to be capable to speak in a way that the person will listen.
NJ: What is the emotional journey of coaching like? The highs and the lows?
CM: The highs are when you learn something about yourself and suddenly a lot of things click and you say, “Now I get it. Now I get why when I say X, I don’t get my way.” Some of the lows can be when you realize your limitations. If you are thoughtful enough and take it far enough, you realize some of these limitations are fatal from an opportunity perspective.
NJ: How do you work through that?
CM: In the same way you work through any disappointment. You either accept it or you don’t. If you are unhappy enough with it, you’ll do something about it and if not, you’ll accept it.
NJ: From your perspective, what does it take to be a great coachee?
CM: You have to want the coaching. If you are doing it because you’ve been told you have to and you don’t actually want to and if you don’t embrace it and you are just going through the motions, it’s a giant waste of time. There was one time my first coach called me about an employee of ours that she was coaching and said I’m going to give you your money back because this person was a brick wall. That employee didn’t last with us. They didn’t really want a coach. You have to want it or take the mindset that you’ll make the best of it, take advantage that someone is paying for it, and pick up what you can, even if you don’t agree you need it. You have to be committed. If you don’t work at it, you won’t be a better executive. You can’t just think, voila.
NJ: As you are going through coaching, what do you do to get the most out of it?
CM: One of the greatest benefits of coaching is the output from the 360 feedback. We don’t get that organically here. That has always been the most helpful aspect of coaching for me. You can take the input and explain it away or you can face it and try to do something with it. Some people are so crushed by the feedback that they can’t move on and then they are mistrustful of the people in the process who gave the feedback.
NJ: It strikes me that you are very open in coaching and prepared to be vulnerable. What motivates you to be that way?
CM: I don’t think it comes naturally to me. Working with my first coach changed me a lot and I realized you have to be that way for it to work. It’s just like therapy, you have to show up willing to be vulnerable. I am sure I didn’t start off that way with that level of comfort. Now I am older and more seasoned in my career. I have a hard time understanding how coaching would work if you don’t show up for it. You would be wasting your time.
NJ: In my experience of working with you, you are very committed to doing the work between the sessions. Why?
CM: At heart, I am still the good student. I don’t want to disappoint you or be the person that doesn’t have their homework. It’s mostly very uncomfortable for me doing the work between sessions. You are not asking me to do math, which I’m very comfortable doing! I start early thinking about the homework because I know I’ll procrastinate because it’s uncomfortable. It takes me a while. I have to think about it while I’m running or biking before I sit down and try to do the work. It’s uncomfortable in the same way that declaring my ambition plan was uncomfortable. But that’s the point, right?
NJ: What gets in the way of being a good coachee?
CM: Bandwidth, having the ability to focus. It doesn’t matter how busy you are. If you are in a coaching session and you are not fully present, it doesn’t work. I am always reminding myself that I need to pay attention and stay present.
NJ: What does it feel like when the mirror is held up to you in coaching or the coach challenges you?
CM: What feels weird about that is if my best friend from seventh grade who’s still my best friend did that it would feel very different than coming from a coach. The fact that someone can just read you so quickly and figure it all out is unnerving. You have to fight against the temptation to disengage when you are talking about the really hard things. Disengaging can be a much more comfortable place to be, but you have to remind yourself, “This is why I’m here. I asked for this.” Time is very precious and if I am spending my time on something then I am going to get the most out of it or I am not going to do it. I am very practical in that way.
NJ: What have been some aha moments for you in coaching?
CM: They have been different at different periods of my life but in general I would say understanding more about how my style can be interpreted by others and that my drive and perfectionism is a real turn-off to a lot of people. That was a real shock to me because I thought everyone wanted to be that way. My ex-husband would say, “The problem with you is that I can never do anything right” and I’d say, “If you would just do it right in the first place, we wouldn’t have to have this conversation!” I learned that’s not how I really aspire to be but it’s how I have evolved. I didn’t decide as a baby to be this way, my life evolved in a way that this is how I am.
NJ: How have you noticed other people reacting differently to you as you have made changes?
CM: I have noticed that people I’ve worked with for a long time and have seen me try to change and improve appreciate it. Whether I am successful or not, the act of trying buys you a lot of good will. I have always been very open that I have coaching. My very first coaching assignment, I had the CEO’s coach and I was very open in promoting that. In the second round, the coach was very public. She ran an offsite with my new team and she interviewed them. I know that brought me a lot of credibility and grace with that team. I used coaching as an enabler to buy credibility with the team. Now, it’s similar and people can see how seriously I am taking my new responsibilities by working with a coach. Across my life, I use my penchant for self-improvement, all the books I read, as a bridge to people.
NJ: What would you advise someone who comes to you saying they are considering coaching?
CM: I’ve had that experience many times. I tell them (a) I am super supportive and (b) I’ve had good experiences and it’s been a game changer. I am usually very encouraging of people wanting to do coaching. My advice is, “Go big or go home.” You have to put in a lot of work, and it can be painful work, so why not go all the way.
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